Great conversation, Erin! I learned so much from Celucian Joseph. It's very interesting and enlightening to get his "Dylan-adjacent" perspective. Thanks for this gift to Dylan world!
I'm glad you talked about "Seven Curses," one of my favorite hidden gems from the first bootleg series. For me, the name Reilly pegs this as an Irish song. It's about injustice, but in the specific context of British imperialist abuses of law and power against the native Irish population. I hear echoes of the rebel ballads Dylan would have heard from the Clancy Brothers, and apparently the lyrics were also inspired by Judy Collins's "Anathea."
If you ever have that follow-up conversation with Celucian, I'd love to hear his takes on "Caribbean Wind" and "Jokerman." The former features a Haitian main character, and the latter was inspired (according to Dylan's 1984 interview with Kurt Loder) by the Caribbean as well. "Jokerman kind of came to me in the islands. It's very mystical. The shapes there and shadows seem to be so ancient. The song was sorta inspired by these spirits they call jumbis." I think jumbis (aka jumbees, jumbies) are the root for the English word/concept "zombies." Lots of interesting swirling of Jesus and Satan imagery in the title figure, too. A meal for your guest to feast upon!
Thank you, Graley. As always, your feedback is thoughtful, generous, and brilliant! I’m grateful that you took time to listen and to share your thoughts. I also love “Seven Curses,” so does Celucien. You’re right about the Irish connection based on the name “Reilly” and that Dylan may have been influenced by the Clancy Brothers. I wonder if Brian would know more about that.
You love “Caribbean Wind.” I forgot about that. I left it out purposefully, but will send it and “Jokerman” to Celucien to see what he thinks and report back. Perhaps I should introduce you two.
I’m looking forward to the opportunity to have you on the show.
Bravo Erin & Celucian … this is Greil Marcus-level masterful oration. Fascinating & compelling. Erin, you really know how to bring the best out of people. Excellent job!
Many thanks for the conversation. It is really uplifting to see all the substacks I joined growing and flourishing and widening the Dylan discussion.
I went down a rabbit-hole in Seven Curses's antecedents when I was writing my Shakespeare-Dylan book as 'Measure for Measure' is built around the same sad story. Given the thousands of scholars who've worked for hundred of years on anything to to with the (other) Bard, I was soon enveloped in an astounding array of versions from all over Europe (from Italy in the South to Finland in the North; Poland in the East to the UK and Ireland in the West) In many cultures' folk past the song gave birth to differing versions of itself. The core tangle of forced sex corruption and injustice always present though the endings vary wildly. In the end, it was one of the sections I cut out of the bulging earlier draft, as it is can easily become all consuming, and not least because Christopher Ricks had covered the song extensively.
I reduced it to:
"Tales and images from the fecund folk-store of fairy stories, ballads and legends can appear in the output of both {Shakespeare and Dylan} and so a direct connection is only a possibility. For example, the famous phrase: “Fee, fi, fo fum” appears in Dylan’s ‘All Over You’ and ‘I Shall Be Free No. 10’ as well as in Shakespeare’s King Lear but I think we can safely discount this as being significant. Likewise, I would find it astonishing if Dylan sang ‘Seven Curses’ as an acknowledgement of Shakespeare’s play concerning the same theme, Measure for Measure. It almost certainly came to Dylan in the form of a song popular on the folk circuit he was part of at the time he wrote his own version. It is a very old tale, and was the plot behind songs, poems and plays long before Shakespeare, far less Dylan, was born. This is not to say that it is not enlightening to consider the two together. Professor Ricks does just that over seven illuminating pages in his book, Visions of Sin, after acknowledging that Dylan’s likely source is Judy Collins singing ‘Anathea’. "
Thank you Erin and Celucien for this wonderful conversation! We would be lucky to have Celucien join the ranks as a Dylan scholar. I really enjoyed Stephen Daniel Arnoff's About Man and God and Law: The Spiritual Wisdom of Bob Dylan, and this episode gave me more of what I always hope people will explore throughout the entirety of Dylan's career.
Great conversation, Erin! I learned so much from Celucian Joseph. It's very interesting and enlightening to get his "Dylan-adjacent" perspective. Thanks for this gift to Dylan world!
I'm glad you talked about "Seven Curses," one of my favorite hidden gems from the first bootleg series. For me, the name Reilly pegs this as an Irish song. It's about injustice, but in the specific context of British imperialist abuses of law and power against the native Irish population. I hear echoes of the rebel ballads Dylan would have heard from the Clancy Brothers, and apparently the lyrics were also inspired by Judy Collins's "Anathea."
If you ever have that follow-up conversation with Celucian, I'd love to hear his takes on "Caribbean Wind" and "Jokerman." The former features a Haitian main character, and the latter was inspired (according to Dylan's 1984 interview with Kurt Loder) by the Caribbean as well. "Jokerman kind of came to me in the islands. It's very mystical. The shapes there and shadows seem to be so ancient. The song was sorta inspired by these spirits they call jumbis." I think jumbis (aka jumbees, jumbies) are the root for the English word/concept "zombies." Lots of interesting swirling of Jesus and Satan imagery in the title figure, too. A meal for your guest to feast upon!
Thank you, Graley. As always, your feedback is thoughtful, generous, and brilliant! I’m grateful that you took time to listen and to share your thoughts. I also love “Seven Curses,” so does Celucien. You’re right about the Irish connection based on the name “Reilly” and that Dylan may have been influenced by the Clancy Brothers. I wonder if Brian would know more about that.
You love “Caribbean Wind.” I forgot about that. I left it out purposefully, but will send it and “Jokerman” to Celucien to see what he thinks and report back. Perhaps I should introduce you two.
I’m looking forward to the opportunity to have you on the show.
Bravo Erin & Celucian … this is Greil Marcus-level masterful oration. Fascinating & compelling. Erin, you really know how to bring the best out of people. Excellent job!
Thank you very much, Harold. I’m humbled by your support.
Celucien’s analyses were so interesting because he’s an esteemed scholar with an impressive mind, but perhaps also because he’s new to Dylan.
I am looking forward to having a talk with you for an upcoming episode.
Celucian’s interpretation of Dylan’s songs is so unique and amazing. Even better is his obvious joy in discovering their meanings. WONDERFUL episode.
Thank you, Roberta! I agree that Celucien is not only impressive, but also that his joy is refreshing (and contagious).
Many thanks for the conversation. It is really uplifting to see all the substacks I joined growing and flourishing and widening the Dylan discussion.
I went down a rabbit-hole in Seven Curses's antecedents when I was writing my Shakespeare-Dylan book as 'Measure for Measure' is built around the same sad story. Given the thousands of scholars who've worked for hundred of years on anything to to with the (other) Bard, I was soon enveloped in an astounding array of versions from all over Europe (from Italy in the South to Finland in the North; Poland in the East to the UK and Ireland in the West) In many cultures' folk past the song gave birth to differing versions of itself. The core tangle of forced sex corruption and injustice always present though the endings vary wildly. In the end, it was one of the sections I cut out of the bulging earlier draft, as it is can easily become all consuming, and not least because Christopher Ricks had covered the song extensively.
I reduced it to:
"Tales and images from the fecund folk-store of fairy stories, ballads and legends can appear in the output of both {Shakespeare and Dylan} and so a direct connection is only a possibility. For example, the famous phrase: “Fee, fi, fo fum” appears in Dylan’s ‘All Over You’ and ‘I Shall Be Free No. 10’ as well as in Shakespeare’s King Lear but I think we can safely discount this as being significant. Likewise, I would find it astonishing if Dylan sang ‘Seven Curses’ as an acknowledgement of Shakespeare’s play concerning the same theme, Measure for Measure. It almost certainly came to Dylan in the form of a song popular on the folk circuit he was part of at the time he wrote his own version. It is a very old tale, and was the plot behind songs, poems and plays long before Shakespeare, far less Dylan, was born. This is not to say that it is not enlightening to consider the two together. Professor Ricks does just that over seven illuminating pages in his book, Visions of Sin, after acknowledging that Dylan’s likely source is Judy Collins singing ‘Anathea’. "
Keep up the good work, keep spoiling us!
Thank you Erin and Celucien for this wonderful conversation! We would be lucky to have Celucien join the ranks as a Dylan scholar. I really enjoyed Stephen Daniel Arnoff's About Man and God and Law: The Spiritual Wisdom of Bob Dylan, and this episode gave me more of what I always hope people will explore throughout the entirety of Dylan's career.